is ftp holding you back? How do you measure progress as a cyclist? Crafting Performance Ep. 2
Summary
How do you measure your progress as a cyclist? Are you limiting yourself by focusing too much on FTP? In this conversation, Coach John and Coach Peter discuss the multifaceted concept of progression in cycling, emphasizing the importance of context, measurement, and personal growth. They explore various metrics such as Functional Threshold Power (FTP) and anaerobic capacity, while also addressing the pitfalls of isolated data and comparison. Ultimately, they advocate for a personalized approach to progression, recognizing that each athlete's journey is unique.
Chapters
00:00 Understanding Progression
03:58 The Importance of Functional Threshold Power (FTP)
10:07 The Limitations of FTP
17:30 Listening to Your Body
20:01 Exploring Anaerobic Capacity and Repeatability
27:05 Measuring Progression in Cycling
34:54 The Balance of Variety in Training
37:19 Measuring Progress: Beyond Numbers
39:32 Self-Reflection in Athletic Progression
42:03 Recognizing Signs of Overtraining
45:01 Mental Strategies for Endurance Training
50:53 Nutrition Strategies for Endurance Athletes
54:16 Fueling for Performance
Key Takeaways:
Progression is about getting better, but it needs context.
Measuring progression requires specific metrics and goals.
Comparison with others can be detrimental to personal growth.
Threshold training is important, but not the only way to progress.
Capacity and repeatability are crucial for performance.
Durability and TTE can have massive impacts on performance
Coaching provides valuable guidance in an athlete's journey.
Embrace individual progression and celebrate personal achievements.
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Peter (00:00)
Yo!
John Cox (00:01)
Yo Peter, how you doing?
Peter (00:04)
Good. It's good to see you.
John Cox (00:05)
Yeah, looks like you a little bit of sunshine.
Peter (00:08)
It's a feel like a new man. It's, it's going to be 58 degrees on Saturday. And, uh, so that's like an 80 degree swing. Cause last week it was like negative 25, like during the day a few times. it's huge. Yeah. Very encouraging.
John Cox (00:26)
Wyoming weather is
rough.
Peter (00:28)
It is rough. It's ice box and six months of the winter and then it quickly transitions to furnace mode. It's like incredibly hot. At least it's not humid though. The cold doesn't hurt you bad and hot is not that bad either. It can be 110 and if it was 110 in the West Carolina you'd be like dead.
John Cox (00:48)
Yeah, those days are very rough. I mean they're rare, but when it's over a hundred in the humidity it is It is rough Yeah Well, what are we talking about today Peter?
Peter (00:55)
Awful. Yeah. Yep.
We are talking about progression and different ways of measuring it, different ways of thinking about it, different ways of like emotionally responding to it in healthy ways, challenges in progressing or plateauing or all of the above.
John Cox (01:19)
Yeah. So I guess we'll start with, you know, defining progression, then talk about different types of progression, how to measure it, and then some of the challenges that come with that. When you hear the word progression, what do you think of, Peter?
Peter (01:35)
Well, at its core, consider it getting better. Although that needs its own asterisk, right? Because like, what does it mean to be better in what avenue? like there are many, many athletes. Like I was talking with my buddy Luke on a ride this weekend. was like, Jonas Vingegaard could like walk into any high school gym room in the United States or Canada or anywhere. And like there's.
there's two dozen 16 year old boys that could outlift him. Like almost without a doubt, like maybe whole classes, you know? And yet he's like one of the best athletes in the world. And so like, you really need to be specific when talking about progression, like, what are you trying to progress? Like how are you measuring getting better? And I think that's really important because it's, if you don't have,
a metric that you're trying to think about or at least a feeling during a particular situation that you're trying to optimize, then what are you managing? Like you can only manage what you're measuring. Otherwise, if you're just kind of at the whim of your own personal experience and mood, how do you think about progression?
John Cox (02:53)
Yeah.
Well, I think you hit on something really important and I think about this a lot is, you know, context is everything. know, and progressing one thing is probably compromising something else. And so, you know, we can't always think about progressing everything all at once. And we have to think about what is, you know, our key event or what is our discipline and are we progressing the right things. And we'll get into that a little bit with, you know,
threshold, right? Like that's the cornerstone for a lot of things and it's not necessarily a bad thing, but is it always the most applicable? Like we'll see. But yeah, I think progression is, know, the, when I think of it in a coaching context and building someone's plan, it's, you know, how do we strategically stack a workload to progress?
the things that we need to in order to be successful in the event and know that that might come at a compromise of something else.
Peter (03:54)
Mm-hmm.
For sure. So like the number that it seems like the whole cycling world is obsessed with is FTP functional threshold power. It's almost become such like a, mean, here in Wyoming, there's almost no other cyclists that even would know what that was, which has its own benefits and its own drawbacks. But in certain circles, your FTP
is almost like telling somebody your worth or your bank account. It's like in a different circle, you're like, hey, what's your total assets? You're not going to tell somebody. But even some people would, I don't know, in different circles. But FTP is definitely like this marker that is defining it in the cycling circle. Do you want to go over what FTP is for the audience?
John Cox (04:32)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah,
FTP, you know, for those of you that don't know, which is probably no one that's listening to this, I think everyone that's listening to this knows, but it's functional threshold power. And, you know, the way that we get it is through a series of different tests. There's different methods, but they're all trying to approximate the power that you could sustain over an hour, maximal.
Peter (04:57)
Yeah.
John Cox (05:15)
Keyword approximate, right? Not many people are going out and doing an hour long time trial to actually figure that out. They're doing an eight minute test, a 20 minute test, a Ramp test, a 12 minute test, and it's all just trying to approximate this threshold. But that threshold is your lactate threshold two, where the lactate levels in your blood start to increase exponentially.
Peter (05:24)
you
John Cox (05:43)
You're no longer in a maximal sustainable state. are now clock is ticking. We've got minutes, no longer hours. And then we base training zones and all that off of that. But with threshold comes a lot of limitations. One, we're approximating it. You could go, of course, go get a lab test and see what wattage that...
lactate spikes, but that has its own limitations, right? Like it's in a lab or it's outside and it's on that day. And, you know, our threshold realistically is changing every day, depending on if we are fatigued, if we're stressed, like it's not always the same. And we like to think that it is because, you know, cycling is such a data heavy sport. And I think that is a good thing, but it can also come with cons because we're like looking for a number to just like hold, hold on to.
or define our worth off of. But even if we are to say, threshold is the most important, it's just your ticket to the race. And that's not how you're gonna win. There's all these other nuances of how do we progress, how do we become skilled racers, and how do we apply our fitness. And those are the types of progression we're gonna get into today.
Peter (06:44)
No.
Mm-hmm.
John Cox (06:55)
Yeah, yeah, anything I'm missing there, you know, thinking about threshold.
Peter (06:59)
Well, the most associated concept with FTP, aside from raw watts, which are really important, I think we would be remiss if we didn't also mention this watts per kilogram associative value, where you just take your FTP and you divide it by how much you weigh, and then that gives you a number, probably for everyone listening here, between two and seven. And that's how many watts every kilogram of your body is contributing to the pedals, or ideally.
John Cox (07:12)
Mm-hmm.
Peter (07:27)
I mean, there's, and so like even talking about watts per kilogram versus raw watts, it's very easy to make value judgments about yourself or about someone else that are not accurate. know, like, I think it's probably better to outperform your expectations. Like I, I'm a heavier athlete than you for sure. Like, and, we'll always be, I'm just a bigger person, I'm taller.
John Cox (07:28)
Mm-mm.
Peter (07:53)
And so like, on paper, I would look at your watch per kilogram and go like, I'm going to get absolutely crushed in almost any scenario. But then if we were to like, design an ideal course, like, I don't know, just be way up in the air. I don't really think these are worth, these are tools not, they're not worth comparing or ranking yourself against anyone else. Like the tool that it's for, when it's for, when it's
used most effectively is to like determine the kind of training that you can withstand. think otherwise, like if you want to compare yourself against other people, like don't do it with watts, don't do it with watts per kilogram, like do it on the race course. Like that's, that's why we race is like to, to compete and have fun. And, and that, that doesn't even define us as people, but it's a fun thing to do.
John Cox (08:28)
turn.
Totally, yeah. it goes back to like what's the purpose of training and it's to get faster. It's not to have X threshold or Y VLA max or to be defined by these metrics is to get faster and do better at the things that we want to, the places we want to perform at. Be faster on the course, place better, et cetera.
And I think, you know, not to get like two soapbox or, you know, we did mention this a lot is the comparison game. And, you know, there's more access to data now than ever before for yourself, but also to look at, you know, pros or your peers. And it's easy to get in your head. It's so easy to get in your head and say, hey, I saw that, you know, this guy's doing 20 hours a week every week.
Peter (09:32)
Yeah. Yeah.
John Cox (09:40)
And you know, I'm only doing 13. Well, like, is he getting faster than me? I was beating him last year, like, oh no, what do I do? like, do I need to cram or do I need to panic? And it's you don't know if that's good for him or not. You don't know what he's trying to change, you know, and you know, I'll have athletes ask me, ask me that about other athletes. I'm like, I'm not their coach. I have no idea what they're doing. And I don't.
Peter (09:55)
100%.
Yeah.
John Cox (10:07)
if it's good
or bad, but I do know that you're growing and that's all that matters, right? And so with that, like let's dive into some of these progressions. The ones that I threw out on our list here was threshold, power, anaerobic capacity, duration and TTE, repeatability, and then RPE. And so...
Peter (10:13)
Yep.
John Cox (10:30)
you know, we're not saying threshold, let's start with threshold, we're not saying that threshold is bad by any means. We're just saying it's not the only way to progress. And so when I think of, you know, increasing threshold, it's kind of the rising tide raises all ships to a degree. But there's eventually a ceiling, right? You know, threshold can, we can increase.
If you're a new rider, you're probably gonna see a boost in threshold rapidly, and that's gonna feel really good, right? It's the new gains and it's like, oh, my FTP is going up and it's like the one that people talk about in your circles. But the longer you ride, less that threshold is gonna increase year on year, right? Like if it could increase year on year, 5%, like we'd all have FTPs of 600 watts.
Peter (11:16)
Mm-hmm.
John Cox (11:23)
you know, but that's just not, there is a physical limitation to it. But I think it's an important thing to progress, especially if you're a athlete that's looking to compete in longer distances or events that require more steady state riding, such as time trialing, gravel racing.
Peter (11:23)
Yeah.
John Cox (11:43)
marathon, all that's really important.
Peter (11:47)
Yeah, yeah, it's definitely, definitely important. No denying that. mean, that's, there's a reason why people talk about it so much. And as a prescriptive indicator, I think it's very good. Like if you have no other tool in defining what kind of work capacity you can do during your workouts, your workouts probably aren't five hours long. You know, they're probably one to three hours. And
It's a really good indicator for the kind of performance you could do on the train or on, you know, with your parameter out on the road. But it definitely has problems. And what would you say are like the biggest limitations of like using FTP as the thing that you define your training by? What kind of holes could materialize?
in an athlete's power profile if they only focused on FTP, in what ways would they be insufficient or not properly trained?
John Cox (12:43)
I think there's probably two or three things that come to my mind. The first is rigidity of training prescriptions, right? Like, you know, you can go look up training zones. There's different models, right? You might find a seven, a six, a three, like, but they're all kind of based off of some sort of threshold number. But if you held tight to that all the time,
you might not be working hard enough. You might be working too hard because the way that people create this FTP number is different, right? So I could produce it and I might be more aerobically dominant. So maybe that is closer to my actual threshold, but someone else that, especially if they did a ramp test or an eight minute test that's anaerobically dominant is gonna have a inflated FTP and people hate hearing that.
Peter (13:32)
Yeah,
John Cox (13:33)
You know,
Peter (13:33)
right.
John Cox (13:34)
it's like, oh, hey, like, I know that you did this test and it says your FTP is 350, but you're anaerobically dominant and your FTP is probably closer to 320. And that's an ego hit, right? But so then if we take that to training prescriptions and, you know, say we're working on VO2, which is typically written at 115 to 130%. And...
Peter (13:44)
Yeah, that's me.
John Cox (14:03)
If we put that, you know, give you that workout, that might not be enough.
Peter (14:08)
Yeah, because I'm
way more anaerobic of an athlete than you by just by comparison. So like I can hit those, the VO2 effort, which is five minutes or less, typically much easier than I can do like a longer interval at a FTP pace.
John Cox (14:15)
Sure.
Yeah,
especially if we were doing like 40 20s or something like that. Like there's riders out there that can repeat one or even one minute on one minute off. They can repeat that at 150 % for an hour, which is wild. I mean, some of the best cross racers are that way because that is such a, you know, anaerobically dominant discipline. But
Peter (14:38)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
John Cox (14:49)
for them to hold that same normalized power consistently, it probably wouldn't go great. They rely on that surge and that anaerobic capacity to be applied and recharged, applied and recharged, right? And so, yeah, you have to have this threshold and be a little bit more nuanced and not be so rigid with the training prescriptions. And then the opposite, so going below, is also true.
Peter (14:54)
Mm-hmm.
John Cox (15:14)
say we do go ahead and set FTP at 350, well, like, maybe you need to be riding at 50 % of FTP for zone two instead of 70%. You know, 70 % you might be doing to, you might actually be in like zone three from a toll standpoint. yeah, so I think that's the first one is, you know, being too rigid on prescriptions, I think.
Peter (15:27)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, for sure.
Mm-hmm.
John Cox (15:43)
The other whole, if you just focus on threshold is if that's not the key, one of the key drivers for your discipline, you're gonna be at a performance disadvantage because, know, yes, the rising tide, you know, lifts all ships to a point, but like once we're getting closer to that ceiling, like,
Peter (15:59)
Yeah.
John Cox (16:09)
If you're training threshold, you're compromising something else.
But you know, and this is a hard pill for folks to swallow too, is that give and take, right? And so if you only focus on threshold, your anaerobic capacity is gonna come down, right? When we do over-unders, when we do threshold work, like we're trying to lower the rate of production of lactate, right?
Peter (16:27)
Mm-hmm.
John Cox (16:35)
which then means we're not gonna be as surgy or snappy as if we're trying to elevate it. But if we work on that anaerobic capacity, then threshold goes down. And people don't like that, like, because they want everything to just go up. I wanna be a sprinter and a climber and a GC specialist and all these things, right? Like, this is not how physiology works. So I think that's the other big con if like we only hone in on threshold.
Peter (16:43)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
John Cox (17:01)
And I have to remind athletes of that and that's where we get into these other aspects of progression.
Peter (17:01)
Mm-hmm.
well, yeah, one, one other thing before we talk about some of these other, progress progression indicators is, I think listening to your body and like having a tuned sense for like how you're feeling and how you're doing is, is a hard thing to trust. when training is so prescriptive.
And so exacting nowadays and it, is a lot of purpose for that. Like there's a huge benefit to being like, Hey, like I'm going to do what the plan, what training Pete says, what coach John says, like pretty much no matter what, Oh, you know, like you need a little, you need a kick of tenacity. Like I'm just going to get after it. Maybe I'm a little bit down, but I'm just going to do it anyways. Like that's important, but there's also this like, you need to weigh like, Hey, like
How do I really feel right now? And like, cause on any given day, it changes a lot. And like, if you're getting this panicked mode during an interval that should not put you in a panic mode, like something's up and like, you're not trying to tick a green box. Your goal is to like create adaptations, you know, or like you're trying to make your muscles like signal to your body. Like I need to get stronger or I need my heart to enlarge or.
whatever it is, whatever kind of adaptation you're trying to figure. I think there's a balance between listening to your body and just having tenacity and perseverance and just doing it anyways.
John Cox (18:40)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I agree.
Peter (18:44)
And it takes wisdom
and time to know how to do that, for sure.
John Cox (18:48)
Yeah, yeah, I think that's one of the benefits of training in general is it is process of exploration and exploring your limits and getting to know your body better and sharpening your mind. And obviously that all comes into play in racing, but it also is applicable in life too.
Peter (18:59)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, it's also sorry
for interrupting. That's one of the huge values in having a coach like I have found it with anyone I've coached or when I've reached out to you for things like I have never heard you say like just do it anyways you pansy you know it's like it's always always it's always like hey like you're not feeling good like
Do it tomorrow, like, wait, you know, like it's not a, it's not really a, a, a race. Like you got to strike when iron's hot in a lot of times.
John Cox (19:34)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think, yeah, if we try to force it sometimes, it's probably gonna backfire. It may be neutral, but I think over time of trying to force things, it is ultimately gonna inhibit progress. know, progress takes time.
I probably should have said that in beginning, like progression takes time and different things take different times to progress, right? Like we can boost sprint performance pretty quickly. It's also the quickest thing to erode, but something like threshold, that's gonna take a lot longer, you know? So yeah, moving on to, you know, another, you know, area that we look at for progression.
Peter (20:17)
Yeah.
John Cox (20:27)
potentially is raw power or anaerobic capacity. And so this is really getting sub two minutes, 90 seconds, 60 seconds, going all the way to sprint. When I say that, what disciplines pop in your mind where this might be relevant?
Peter (20:46)
For me, everything. But crits, huge in crits, huge in road racing, cyclocross, frac, anything on the velodrome. There's no race on the velodrome that's long at all. They're all crazy short. Even the 3K is very short. But even, I do a lot of gravel right now, and even though...
John Cox (20:54)
and
Peter (21:06)
probably physiologically, and more of a pit racer. You can save a lot of energy by just being a bit more powerful because you're not gonna lose wheels. You're there and you don't have to go as deep into the hurt locker if you can just hit it real hard and cover something. But typically, the super draft intensive racing disciplines and often flatter.
John Cox (21:24)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Peter (21:34)
or where the raw short-term peak power has its largest advantage.
John Cox (21:41)
Yeah, I mean, I would make the case that XCO is becoming more anaerobically, maybe not dominant, but important and for sure short track. But, you know, modern XC courses, you know, the races shoot to be hour to hour and a half. And, you know, it's not crazy long. It's long enough to hurt for sure. But on an average, you know,
Peter (21:46)
Yeah.
Door drag, for sure.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
John Cox (22:07)
XCO course, it's two, two to three minute climbs per lap. And that's coming down closer to raw watts, right? Like things aren't long enough, you know, going back to what you were talking about with watts per kilo, like being a pure climber is not gonna help you perform on an XC course anymore. You gotta be able to put out a lot of watts for a short amount of time on these punchy courses.
Peter (22:18)
for sure.
Mm-hmm.
John Cox (22:33)
Yeah, enough time to like settle into your, you know, 20 minute pace.
Peter (22:38)
Yeah, you look
at a Vanderpool is a perfect example of this kind of athlete is like an absolute horse. You know, the, the mouth breathers are a pink bike. They like to talk about his ramp incident, but like he's a beast. Like he can, he can shred a bike for sure. And there's a reason he is so dominant. It's like he can just put out more power than anyone else for two to three minutes, three times a lap. Like he's.
He was incredible at that and he uses that to his advantage. Like he punishes his competitors in a big way.
John Cox (23:11)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, you're not trying, yeah, I'm not trying to hold onto his wheel. That's not gonna go great. Andy has the bike handling to suit, you know. But yeah, and so, you know, when we think about, you know, measuring this progression, obviously we can look at, you know, raw watts. And then, you know, the second piece to this is that repeatability, right? Like, anyone can go hard for 60 seconds or two minutes.
Peter (23:16)
No. No. No.
Yeah.
John Cox (23:40)
if that's what we're looking at, but can you do it 12 times over? That's where that repeatability matters. say we've built up our capacity, our max anaerobic ability to where we need it or where we want it to be, that next step of looking at progression is like, can we repeat this 90 second effort or two minute effort?
Peter (23:46)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
John Cox (24:07)
eight times, okay? We knock that out of the park. Can we do it 10 times? Can we get up to that 12 point? And maintain, you know, the 12th effort was as strong as the first. Like, as a coach, I'm looking at that. Like that means, oh, we're gonna do a lot better in the next C race now because you can repeat.
Peter (24:13)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
John Cox (24:33)
you could do this, you could look at the repeatability with five minutes, whatever the duration is, that repeatability matters a ton.
Peter (24:42)
Yeah, huge time, Because races aren't three minutes long. Unless you're on a velodrome. None of the ones I'm interested in.
John Cox (24:48)
Oh, not none of the ones that I do.
Yeah. Um, yeah. And so, you know, and we could increase that, but your FTP has never gone up. And, but you're a stronger athlete. And I think it's important for people to remember like the threshold isn't the only way to become better. Right. It's like, should, you should feel.
Peter (25:03)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
John Cox (25:17)
just as accomplished completing yet, you know, 12 three-minute efforts or 12 two-minute efforts as setting a new FTP. If that's like your all-time best, like at repeating that high of watt, that's a win. That's a huge win. And I think sometimes we don't celebrate those things enough. Or yeah, we got through that hard workout that has just been, you know.
Peter (25:27)
sure.
Yeah.
John Cox (25:44)
punching us in the throat for the last month or year and we finally get it.
Peter (25:48)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. And there will be a point when like, if you do enough of them, then it becomes like not a rubber capacity anymore. Like probably a upper capacity has risen. So like you might need to just like raise the power that you're doing. Like if you can do 15 super high power, two minute efforts, like maybe you go way higher at like, if you'd only did five, you know, and.
John Cox (26:09)
Not doing it hard enough.
Yeah.
And I think that goes back to like not being super rigid, right? Or, okay, like I knocked that on the park. Like, what if I could do it at 145 % instead of 130? Like, let's try it, right? Like, that's a way to grow. And yeah, and so yeah, I think we've gone through power, repeatability.
Peter (26:19)
Yeah.
Yeah.
So sure.
John Cox (26:40)
The other one is duration, right? Like maybe we take that two minutes and we stretch it to three minutes, right? That's another way that we can progress workouts and we can do that on the short or we can do that on the long thresholdy stuff too, right? Like let's add another over under onto this 12 minute set to make it 15 minutes. And like, that's another way to progress, you know, workouts. And that kind of gets into, you know, TTE, which there's, you know,
Peter (26:45)
Mm-hmm.
John Cox (27:06)
softwares that predict this metric, know, such as WKO or EXERT, that's time to exhaustion. So like, can you hold the same power for longer than you used to be able to hold it for? Right? And then that's, think TTE becomes incredibly important in road racing, especially if you're doing stage racing or mountain bike stage racing. Sure. Gravel racing, definitely. You know, like.
Peter (27:18)
Yeah.
John Cox (27:29)
Almost every gravel race I've done, and maybe it's just the ones I've been to, it starts like an XCO, and then it just turns into like a time trial of like who can hold FTP for a while. Okay, who can hold sweet spot for longer, and then who can maintain some level of power for the last bit.
Peter (27:45)
Yeah.
Yeah, you're like 110 miles in and
you're struggling to hold like 225 up a climb and you're like, what happened to me?
John Cox (27:56)
Yeah, yeah. And it's like there's zero pacing. It's just like all like off the gun and then just attrition. And so like TTE in that situation is massive.
Peter (27:59)
Yeah.
Yeah, tons of attrition.
Huge, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and like just, it'll pay huge dividends. mean, all of those things, like all of these indicators, whatever kind of metric you're training for at any given time. And I think it's very, really, really helpful to like constantly switch the stimulus or, you know, systematically, you know, like go through a block. That's kind of the philosophy I'm operating under right now is like,
John Cox (28:26)
Thank
Peter (28:31)
Maybe because I'm a bit of a caveman and I can only focus on one thing at a time, but all of these things contribute to becoming a strategic, capable athlete who can use the tools at their disposal to the best of your ability. You and I would race the same race differently, optimally, just because we're physiologically different athletes. And so we would operate with different strategies.
John Cox (28:44)
Mm-hmm.
Peter (28:56)
to like succeed the best.
John Cox (28:58)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah. I think that's totally true. You know, the caveat I'll put to that is like, there's flexibility in physiology too, of how we train, right? Like, you know, someone could say, well, I'm not X type of rider. But if you signed up for an event that requires, you know, something different than what you're naturally gifted at, like, you got to try to change it.
Peter (29:09)
have.
John Cox (29:26)
Right? Like, you just have to. Like, if you were an ultra guy and then all of a you want to, you know, race cross country, like, you're going to spend a year or two trying to change things up. You know?
Peter (29:26)
Yep. Yep.
Yeah. Yeah. That's
a good point. I think it's a good reminder to get a little bit of not to find yourself so much. I think with training, if we were to just switch, I think with training, we could probably switch how we are talking about how we relate to our own power profiles. With enough training, you could become an incredibly anaerobic athlete.
And you already are, but like you could become primarily an aerobic athlete and with enough training I could become a primarily aerobic athlete. They're not, it's not like these things were chiseled in stone before time began.
John Cox (30:19)
Yeah, yeah,
and there's a lot of overlap, you know, and yeah, yeah, so I think it's, yeah, it's always, you know, nuanced and, but I think we, you know, if we are gonna change a profile or try to elevate, you know, a profile, like we have to be able to measure it, right? And so we have to measure this progress and yeah, we talked about these different things to measure, but like, how do we do that?
Peter (30:22)
Yeah.
John Cox (30:46)
you know, yeah, we could look at, you know, reps repeated, duration, what power it's at, all of those things. I think one of the biggest challenges or you alluded to this a second ago of like focusing on one thing and like that's where we get into periodization of a season or multiple years even if we're trying to like go after some really big event. And that's because
Our bodies aren't great at handling conflicting stimulus at one time, right? Like, you're not gonna be able to increase anaerobic capacity while also focusing on threshold deliberately. They're kind of competing against each other and like, yeah, you might get some benefit or you get a benefit and you don't know which stimulus is causing it. Like, you know you're faster, but you're not really sure if it's like...
one side or the other. And so that's where we get into like, hey, during this build block, like we're really focusing on raising VO2. So we're going to do a lot of that two to eight minute work. And we're going to drive that home and you know, we're going to build that, that block could be up to eight weeks, you know, maybe longer if we really want to. And we're looking at building progression within
those eight weeks, right? Like we might start with micro bursts and then we work our way up to five by fives or, you know, a six to eight minute stair step interval, something like that to, you know, find a measure of progress.
Peter (32:15)
I think having those points of measuring progress are really important and it can look like a number improving. know, you can see it on a graph. could plot on a graph. A tool that I'm a fan of is repeated workouts that might be aspirational at the beginning. It might be to the point where it's like, I can't do this. You know, it's like, let's say you have a four week block.
And you put it, you know, every Friday or whatever. and hopefully by the end of the block, it's like, it's not just a number on the graph going up or data point on the graph. It's like, no, I finished that and it felt great because at the end of the day, like when you're racing, like it's, you're not looking at a graph or if you are, you're probably doing it wrong.
It's about being able to withstand the load that's imposed on you or imposing the effort on other people through attacking, whatever. I really like the repeated workouts for that reason of having a physical measuring stick to compare myself against. And part of that is just not being okay that this workout is aspirational.
I might not be able to do the end one, the last set or the last interval here.
John Cox (33:30)
Yeah, I think that's all really great. I think a lot of people get scared of that. Like they view it as, I didn't complete this workout and I'm a failure because of it. And that's not true. It's like, cool. Like I get excited when we find that breaking point. You know, if an athlete finds that breaking point, I'm like, cool. Like now I know.
we have something to work towards, right? Like we found a hole and like now we can work on it. Like if you're completing everything, like, and nothing's challenging you, like we're not pushing hard enough, right? And like, we're always looking for that like knife edge, right? Like it doesn't need to be like so extreme that like we're failing everything, like, but an occasional like, yeah, this is, this is my point. Like that's, that's good. And the other thing is like the repeated workout versus variety.
Peter (34:02)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
John Cox (34:25)
Right. And I hear both sides of it. And I think we can have a balance of both. You know, you can have a variety of, you know, progressing workouts, say 30 15s to 40 20s to constant efforts, right? Like you're working the same system and you're progressing through that. But it might look like you're repeating, you know, the 40 20s four times in a row until they're locked down.
Peter (34:25)
Mm-hmm.
John Cox (34:54)
or you hit the number, the point where we want you to be. And that's not attractive to some people. Like they want constant variety, right? Like we want stimulus, it's TikTok brain or whatever it is. And I think, you know, hopefully I don't get put on blast for this, but like that's one of you know, pros and cons of a program like TrainerRoad.
Peter (35:00)
Right.
Yeah.
John Cox (35:19)
is it's giving you a novel workout almost always. Like nothing's the same. And like, yes, it's still working the same system. So you're in a VO2 block. Like it is going to be the same system, but I think it gets challenging. And I've had athletes that have come from, you know, a trainer road or similar, tell me this is like one of the struggles that they had was, you know, they rank a workout like a
7.2 or 7.4 and so like you know it's harder or easier but you don't say you struggled on it like you don't get it again next week or two weeks from now to say like oh like I I nailed it like I've I put a nail in that coffin and it's done and I accomplished it and so I think there's something to be said for yeah having those the staples and
Peter (35:54)
Yeah.
Yeah.
John Cox (36:12)
know, training also doesn't have to be complicated or incredibly various to be effective.
Peter (36:17)
Yeah. I think the risk that you run or that I run for sure with a lot of repeated workouts is you are limiting how varied your stimulus is. like, we're not saying that varied stimulus is bad. Like varied stimulus is great. It does really good things for your body. So I think like in order to avoid that risk, like I've personally been like doing shorter blocks.
Like if a block is three weeks long, like I can do two blocks when I might've used to be able to, used to do like an eight week block or something or a six week block. but yeah, I, I think that the, repeated workouts that you get in or that a coach can give are great and aspirational achievements or just indicators of just like.
John Cox (36:52)
Mm-hmm.
Peter (37:07)
giving a person like little breadcrumbs to follow me. Okay, I'm headed the right direction. Like, hey, I got four out of five and last week I wasn't able to finish the fourth one and then by the end of the block you're smashing all five of them. Whatever it may be.
John Cox (37:14)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, mean,
a good example too is like season over season. Is I had this conversation yesterday. I have an athlete who's a little disappointed, just feeling like his numbers weren't where he wanted them to be. And I think primarily thinking of that threshold number, like why hasn't my threshold gone up? But looking at year over year, like yes, his threshold has gone up.
But more importantly, you know, looking at a, you know, two minute repeat, he's up over a hundred watts or close to a hundred watts this time last year. And it's February and like racing hasn't even started, but that that's good. Right. And like he hit those numbers when it was, you know, mid race season. So it's like.
Peter (37:54)
It's a big deal. Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
John Cox (38:09)
That's a huge marker of progress. I don't care what your FTP says, like that's going to make you faster lap on lap. So.
Peter (38:15)
For sure. A hundred percent will. And
it's like, it's a natural way to like, I was looking through my training peaks and my Strava at the past year. I was like, would, I did, I can see the value being like, let's, let's do the same thing, the same aspirational thing, like in a year from now or.
John Cox (38:37)
Okay.
Peter (38:39)
I'm sure like a year ago, I could do what I was doing a year ago, like on a recovery almost, just in my little journey.
John Cox (38:45)
Yeah.
Yeah, I had
an athlete the other week that was the case, you know, like his now, you know, what he's recovering at between intervals was what his intervals were at, you know, a year and a half ago. And it's like, that's massive, right? Like that what was once maximal is now like recovery. Like that's like pretty, pretty remarkable. So I think there's, you know, these different ways to find the.
Peter (39:00)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
John Cox (39:14)
find the wins and see the progress. And then think about how that applies to your racing and your unique event. Each event's gonna be a little bit different in where we're gonna find those markers.
Peter (39:17)
For sure.
Yeah.
for sure. Yeah, super valuable.
John Cox (39:32)
think we covered the main topics. Any other thoughts on progression?
Peter (39:35)
Good talk.
I think as a kind of where we started this conversation of like using any of these metrics as primarily self reflective, because if, if you go down the road of comparing yourself against others, not a whole lot of like positive comes from that. they're without really good guidance and like,
mature thinking people around you. If it becomes an area where we're like ranking each other against it's very easy with there's so much data out there to like compare yourself against like Matteo Jorgensen or like any of these people. And what's good for them is not what an individual athlete needs like
Just kind of keeping, keeping, trusting the process and using, using your metrics as self motivating factors. think it's the best case scenario. Worst case would be like being down at the dumps because I can't do the watts and the tail organs can. And he's 25 pounds less than me. It's like, it's not helpful to anybody, you know? I'm not a professional athlete either.
John Cox (40:49)
Totally, yeah, and I think it's remembering your context, your growth, your path is gonna look different than someone else's. that's all you can really ask for. And your restraints and your challenges are different than theirs, right? It could be a time thing or it could be, what we talked about on our last episode was you have to be patient and sometimes things don't.
progress as quickly as you want, right? Like your body might not be able to, ready to handle 20 hour weeks, if that's what you could do, right? Like again, it doesn't matter like how much training you do, it's how much you can take in. Like, I want to progress volume, but now I'm getting sick every third week. That's probably an indicator that you're pushing too hard, right? Like build fatigue, fatigue, fatigue, and then all of sudden your body's crumbling. It's not.
Peter (41:20)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
John Cox (41:46)
not appropriate progression.
Peter (41:49)
For sure. Yeah. What are some, like, telltale signs that you need to recover? That you need to, like, pull the plug and rest? We covered a lot of this last time, but I think it's worth going over again.
John Cox (42:03)
Yeah, I think one is your mood, right? Like, are you a little less patient? Are you like, yeah, getting angry over something that's like, benign? it's just like, it doesn't matter and you're like throwing a hissy fit. Like, it's probably because you're like irritable because you're like overtrained or getting close to that point. And then I think, you know, general fatigue, like, do you feel like...
Peter (42:23)
Mm-hmm.
John Cox (42:28)
more like yeah we as athletes we're used to carrying a like a certain level of fatigue but is it excessive like god like i need to take a nap every day well it's probably not not ideal
Peter (42:41)
Yeah.
John Cox (42:43)
Yeah, are you excessively sore? Right, like there's one thing to be like, yeah, sore from the gym or like, yeah, I did 40, 20s like this morning and like my legs are a little heavy, like to be expected. But like, are you excessively sore going up and down the stairs? Like, it's not where we need to be.
Peter (42:53)
Yep.
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, enthusiasm. Like, am I dreading? Am I like seriously questioning? Am I overthinking like, should I do this, should I do this, should do this? If I'm like looping that thought in my head for like hours before I do the workout, probably a sign I should not do the workout. Cause like, I might be able to like grit my teeth and do it, but like, if I'm not like,
John Cox (43:13)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Peter (43:27)
a little bit enthusiastic to see or curious to see what I can do, then the adaptation is probably not going to come in the way that I want it to because I'm already exhausted.
John Cox (43:39)
Yeah, I think that one's a hard one for people to like feel out a little bit because there are like certain workouts that should feel scary and like you said aspirational of like, I'm gonna go try to do five by fives at 430. Like that might make your stomach feel like, like towing a line of a race. Like this is gonna hurt, but there should be.
Peter (43:47)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
John Cox (44:02)
you know, some level of like, want to see if I can do this and like motivation there. But if it's just like nothing but dread, then, you know, maybe something else is going on.
Peter (44:07)
Yeah.
For sure. Yeah. And like, think endurance athletes just, it's just on the side. saw you, do you know who Allie Ostrander is? She's a runner. She makes YouTube videos. She did a little shorts about like, these are some tricks that like endurance has taught me as like how to gaslight myself hard. How to like trick my, how to do like runner math, which is the same as cyclist math. You're like, okay, this is the one before the last one. So I'm basically done. You know, it's like.
John Cox (44:38)
Yeah.
Peter (44:43)
If those tricks aren't like, we're gonna need those tricks like forever anytime you're training, like you need to like use those tricks, but if none of them are working, it's trying to, so I think it's important to like both own that it's going to be hard, but also like give yourself the rest that you need.
John Cox (45:01)
What's your favorite cyclist math to do in a workout?
Peter (45:06)
60 is the reason there's 60 minutes in an hour is because 60 is extraordinarily divisible or 360 degrees. That is the reason why 360 degrees is like if you use degrees submitted circle, it's super divisible. So I like to like, you know, break that into chunks of like 12 or 15 or whatever it is 24. It doesn't really work super simply 24.
And then I like to predict what is my distance going to be at an hour. I spend a lot of time on the trainer, as you know. So I do a lot of like that. It just helps me to like think about this. Usually it's not like, I'm not integrating, but it's like difficult enough mental math to be like, okay, if I did 17 miles an hour for 15 minutes and this is
this many miles like how do I multiply that over to however long I'm going to ride an hour 45 or whatever it is. What's yours?
John Cox (45:58)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Intervals, I always count to half and then I count down.
Peter (46:10)
Cool, you count up to half. Nice.
John Cox (46:12)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, so say like
I have eight intervals. It's like I get to four and then I'm counting down because then it's like like the end is near.
Peter (46:20)
Yeah. Yeah.
John Cox (46:22)
versus like, I gotta like get all the way to eight. I think it's just a.
It's just a mental thing I do. It's kind of like the, like, I'm on my last one. I'm almost done. It's like, I only have two more.
Peter (46:28)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
For sure. Yeah. I, uh, I think the first one is hard, you know, even though it might not physically be hard, but like, I'm like, if I can get through the first one, that's fine. And then the middle set is where I'm like settling in and I tell myself a lot, but the lap, if there, if I have four left, for example, like the third to go or two to go is the hardest. And then it's like, when the horses smell the barn, you just finish the last.
John Cox (46:56)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Peter (47:01)
one or two to make how long they are. It's a no big deal.
John Cox (47:04)
I see that in the data all the time. It's like, the first one's like, okay. And then, yeah, there's like, you hit a stride and then maybe dips down. And then the last one's like exceptionally high, comparative to the like the last two. you know, it's just, yeah, it's like, we're there, we're done. Yeah. Yeah. The first one almost like never feels good in my...
Peter (47:06)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
John Cox (47:28)
experience.
Peter (47:29)
Yeah, yeah.
He just got back from Puerto Rico.
John Cox (47:32)
Did, yep, yep. We had six athletes down there, five for the whole time. One came down just over the weekend, kick off the XC season with some warm weather, hard racing. It is crazy, know, like season starts in February now. It's early, but I think it's good thing to get down there and you know the...
The race organizers do such a good job at that race. then, you know, people have been on the trainer for a minute now. They're like hungry to like see some of this work like in the real world and pay off and just get some of that stoke going. But yeah, overall like really successful trip. You know, we had a podium. We got other athletes getting their first UTI points.
some really strong performances, even if the results didn't pay off because we snapped a seat off. But the legs were firing and ready to link it up the rest of the season. Yeah, it was a good time. The downside, we lost our car rental keys on the morning we were supposed to leave. So we disassembled some rear brakes to get the car out of a tight spot to load up onto a tow truck.
to get home because I guess they don't keep spare keys. So that seems like a flaw, but I'm not the manager of a car rental facility to make those decisions. But yeah, man, was good. Good way to start the season and yeah, we're.
Peter (48:47)
Dang.
man.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Did you eat any plantains?
John Cox (49:04)
yeah, a little bit of mofungo Yeah.
Peter (49:06)
I
was thinking about that word and it wasn't hitting me, but yeah.
John Cox (49:10)
Yeah,
dude its so good. I wish there were more places readily available that had it here.
Peter (49:16)
Yeah, it'd be great. There's not a prayer in Wyoming. Zero shot. People are like, tacos, that's ethnic food. Not really. Yeah.
John Cox (49:18)
Smile.
Yeah, no shot. No shot.
Yeah, like, it's a hard shell taco, I thought.
But yeah, yeah, it was a good time. The course down there's fun. It's fairly dynamic. Yeah, we had some mechanicals, but.
Peter (49:41)
You did, there were two races right?
John Cox (49:44)
There were two XCOs and one short track. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and then there's another set this weekend in Rincon, but we decided to just go down for the first week. I've done the multi-week previous years, and it's awesome, but it is a lot of time to...
Peter (49:47)
Okay, nice. Were they all in Salinas?
Yeah.
especially if you're in school.
John Cox (50:06)
Yeah, especially if folks are in school, it becomes almost a two and a half week trip. then now the season is a little bit more compressed with some other races shifting closer. And so, you know, it's that balance. It's hard in season. You know, you get stuck in the race and recover cycle and you're not getting the most productive training done. You're kind of just trying to like hold on to this fitness you've built all through the base and early season.
Peter (50:26)
Yeah.
John Cox (50:33)
So coming back a little bit earlier gives most athletes a full training block before the next race block.
Peter (50:41)
Very cool.
John Cox (50:42)
But yeah, what's going on in your world? How's training going? Bicarb experiments? What's cooking in Peter's world?
Peter (50:50)
Yeah.
I have been experimenting with more bicarb and kind of, if I were to write a book right now, it'd be like balling on a budget, like how to like, get yourself good nutrition on like so cheap. my latest strategy, no hydrogels, no like alginate, like no, it's just baking soda at like 0.3 grams per kilogram body weight.
or something. And it ends up being quite a lot. it's a significant amount. So if you were to have like a little drinking glass, it'd be like, you know, solid three quarters of an inch of baking soda at least. So I just put more sugar, I put sugar with it. And then I don't fill up the glass with water, I just put like enough to make kind of a sauce. And then I just
John Cox (51:29)
Mm-hmm.
Peter (51:43)
done it as fast as possible. And that is a way, I know it sounds gnarly, but it's so much easier than diluting it in water. Because if it's in half a liter of water, like you got to drink that for like several minutes. Like you're not gonna like just chug half a liter of water. Like I wish I, know, there's those dudes that can like just like, with a bottle of water. I can't do that. like, I just, this has worked way better.
John Cox (52:03)
Yeah.
Peter (52:08)
And for whatever reason, it seems to like not bother my gut nearly as bad. I didn't like inflate like I'd have in the past and no digestional distress. So I'm still conflicted over like a sign and causality, but I will use it if I'm like, you know, this is gonna be a heavy one and I want whatever placebo effect, if it's placebo, I want that.
so that's, that's like the, aside from like the usual homebrew sugar mix that I've been thinking about using for a long time now. I thought of a sweet analogy, that is like very much in this, high carb fueling world is like a lot of people are treating their training or their racing or just like training towards racing.
John Cox (52:44)
Mm-hmm.
Peter (53:03)
Like they're in like an electric car race where they only have one battery and they got to make that battery last for the duration of the race. So they're trying to become more efficient. Which is not a bad goal. But the problem is like there's batteries available to you out on the course, you know, in terms of sugar, or you can carry, you can carry more fuel with you as a, if you're using the battery analogy for free. like, it's, it weighs nothing to have like.
what's another 400 grams of carbs? That's like less than a pound and you're going to be carrying water anyways. So it was like, the goal shouldn't be like how efficient can I make my body? But the goal is like how much fuel can I push through my body and like properly metabolize and turn into energy? Like can I make that energy pathway
John Cox (53:53)
Mm-hmm.
Peter (53:57)
If you're viewing it like a nozzle, like as wide, like huge open gates, where it's like, how brilliant would it be to actually be able to use 150 grams of carbon hour? Like that'd be amazing. Like if you could like, I think that's what a lot of the pro tour guides are doing. Their body can take it. It's dangerous to like, you don't want to overdo it, but in training, I think like.
John Cox (54:01)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Peter (54:24)
I've been so, so convinced by this high carb training, like, being so effective for insurance athletes, despite it being like counterintuitive because like, it's possibly the worst thing you can do if you're not training. Like, you know, it's like the opposite of any sort of like generic health advice you would get, but like, I think if you can reduce how bad you can get depleted, you're going to recover faster. Like you're going to.
John Cox (54:39)
Sure.
Peter (54:52)
adapt way better and you're going to be ready to go again like way quick.
John Cox (54:58)
Yeah, think it's, you know, I still have athletes that, you know, are growing and changing in that mindset. But for so long it was like, what's the minimum I can get away with? And it's like, we need to shift that to like, what's the maximum I can bring in and work with, right? you know, our bodies are like a Ferrari.
Peter (55:18)
Yeah.
John Cox (55:22)
Um, and like both need fuel to run, but the difference with a Ferrari is like, it's still can perform maximal with a quarter left in the tank. Uh, that's not how the human body works. Like if we're on a quarter tank, our performance starts to decrease. And so it's like, we need to be topping off any chance we get. And like the reality too is you're never, I'm sure there's a scenario, like.
Peter (55:34)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
John Cox (55:50)
By and large, you're never gonna out eat the work that you're doing on the bike if you're a high performing athlete. Like there's no way, like if you're doing a thousand KJs an hour, you're gonna be hard pressed to, no, that'd be 250 grams of carbs. You can't be like, or would be.
Peter (55:55)
For sure. Yeah.
can't take that in.
Yeah, which would be incredible. Like maybe that's the upper
human limit. Like maybe that's what we see in 15 years, you know.
John Cox (56:17)
Sure.
But, but like until then it's like you're not, not out eating. Like, so you're just trying to diminish the hole that you're putting yourself in. And the longer the race, the more intense the race, like the bigger that hole is going to be. And so you might as well just bring in as much as you can. And then the other thing too is if you're training a lot, which like,
Peter (56:28)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, for sure.
John Cox (56:43)
even if you're doing 12 hours, like you're starting to get into like decent volume, like the energy burden that...
training becomes is...
A my camera went out.
Peter (56:59)
Yeah, I can still hear you. Is this still recording? I think it is.
John Cox (57:05)
There we go. But the energy burden of training is a real thing, right? Like if you go do a five hour ride, then it's gonna be a lot to like eat all of that back the rest of the day, especially if you rode through lunch, right? And so by staying on top of it while you're riding is gonna make it easier to, yeah, not be so in the hole.
Peter (57:17)
huh. huh.
Yeah.
I almost desire like a tone of silence or like a, if you've heard of an anechoic chamber, it's like that chamber that's like incredibly deadening to like not hear any sort of like general health or diet advice, you know, because it's like for like, if you're a sedentary person or just like a, you you work a normal job and you're not like an endurance athlete, like what you need to eat and like what you need to like think about with your diet or like, it's like a different planet.
John Cox (57:39)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Peter (58:01)
the demands placed on an endurance athlete are so primary to their, like so central to like the difficulty of it, that refueling is critical to like getting better, like, because it's so energy intensive.
John Cox (58:14)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Especially if you're trying
to do it in like a clean fashion, right? Like eating 6,000 calories in a day is like a chore.
Peter (58:30)
Yeah, yeah, you're not gonna eat that much salad like
John Cox (58:31)
Bye.
No, and like you have to start finding like denser foods for sure. But like, mean the volume of food that like I eat on like a long day is a lot and like, you know, I'm tracking it not to restrict myself but to hold myself accountable. Like am I like getting enough that this work that I did was actually beneficial because if you're not getting enough, kind of wasting your time.
Peter (58:38)
Yep.
John Cox (59:01)
Like you're just suffering without getting the benefit.
Peter (59:03)
Yeah, and some people like to suffer. That's okay. I think about spin class at a YMCA or something. I think that's primarily just designed to make you suffer and not actually improve. It's a different topic, but it feels good to suffer sometimes.
John Cox (59:16)
Yeah, yeah, it feels good. Yeah, yeah, you get your...
Yeah, I low-key think I would get wrecked in spin class. Like, I don't know, I haven't done it, but like, you know, I see the videos and I'm like, you know, they're standing up doing like 130 cadence and like I've not once ever done that.
Peter (59:26)
I mean, maybe.
Yeah, for sure. It is not cycling, which is okay. You know, it's its own thing. We might hate for that, but it's its own thing and that's okay.
John Cox (59:45)
Yeah.
Maybe next team camp, we'll all go to a spin class and see who can handle it.
Peter (59:53)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is displaying my ignorance, but I don't really know how those like spin bikes work. Like, is it just a dial, like a magnet or like a friction thing? So is it a just all relative, like hurt yourself as much as you want and just keep turning it up.
John Cox (1:00:07)
At least like.
I think the last one, like, you know, spin bike I used in a gym was like that. But I imagine like anything that's probably like fancier gamified versions that maybe have watts or electronic resistance or something.
Peter (1:00:18)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
John Cox (1:00:30)
Anyways, with that, we should wrap it up.
Peter (1:00:33)
OK, sounds good.
John Cox (1:00:35)
Awesome. Well,
thanks for the time.
Peter (1:00:37)
Yeah, good to see you.
John Cox (1:00:39)
Yep, we'll come up some other ideas for our next one and get on with it.
Peter (1:00:44)
Yeah, yeah, if you have questions and you're watching this and you want advice by a person who knows a ton and person who knows a little bit, then we'll answer you.
John Cox (1:00:57)
We'll let you guys try to figure out which one knows a lot and which one knows a little. And it probably flip-flops each day.
Peter (1:01:05)
Good tens.
Alrighty, good to see you. Peace.
John Cox (1:01:07)
Good to see you.
See ya.
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